Comments on: send_pings and losing my innocense http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/18/send_pings-and-losing-my-innocense/ This can all be made better. Ready? Begin. Wed, 07 Jan 2009 21:59:00 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: FactoryJoe http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/18/send_pings-and-losing-my-innocense/comment-page-1/#comment-1844 FactoryJoe Thu, 19 Jan 2006 18:21:40 +0000 http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/18//#comment-1844 @Ryan: would you like to be Maid Maryann or Little John in my make-believe world of Robin Hood? @Joe and Brent: The feature in and of itself may or not catch on with advertisers... it may not even end up in the final builds of Firefox as it's been proposed. This whole debate, after all, does seem to be the open source peer review process in effect... However, as Brent said, besides the possible perception of pages loading faster, is it likely that this feature will catch across the web? Perhaps we can liken it to the standardization of rel=nofollow (though that was inherently backwards compatible). Again, I don't know if this feature is good or bad. As Joe point out, it puts a degree of <em>perceived</em> control in the hands of users, <strong>provided that current redirections are rewritten using the non-backwards compatible ping attribute.</strong> Even if every current Firefox user upgraded to Firefox 2 and had this feature on by default, as a link-tracker, it's still more economically sensible for me to do <em>both</em> techniques to hit the widest audience. I guess the big question is: if you build it, will they come... especially if (hopefully) this feature actually puts more control in the hands of end users? @Ryan: would you like to be Maid Maryann or Little John in my make-believe world of Robin Hood?

@Joe and Brent: The feature in and of itself may or not catch on with advertisers… it may not even end up in the final builds of Firefox as it’s been proposed. This whole debate, after all, does seem to be the open source peer review process in effect… However, as Brent said, besides the possible perception of pages loading faster, is it likely that this feature will catch across the web? Perhaps we can liken it to the standardization of rel=nofollow (though that was inherently backwards compatible).

Again, I don’t know if this feature is good or bad. As Joe point out, it puts a degree of perceived control in the hands of users, provided that current redirections are rewritten using the non-backwards compatible ping attribute. Even if every current Firefox user upgraded to Firefox 2 and had this feature on by default, as a link-tracker, it’s still more economically sensible for me to do both techniques to hit the widest audience.

I guess the big question is: if you build it, will they come… especially if (hopefully) this feature actually puts more control in the hands of end users?

]]> By: Dimitri Glazkov http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/18/send_pings-and-losing-my-innocense/comment-page-1/#comment-1843 Dimitri Glazkov Thu, 19 Jan 2006 15:56:05 +0000 http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/18//#comment-1843 I am all for good ole evil-doing and somesuch, so the ping proposal doesn't really ruffle my feathers from that end. However, it _smells_ funny. Can't say exactly why, but when I can articulate it, I will. I am all for good ole evil-doing and somesuch, so the ping proposal doesn’t really ruffle my feathers from that end. However, it _smells_ funny. Can’t say exactly why, but when I can articulate it, I will.

]]> By: Brent O. http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/18/send_pings-and-losing-my-innocense/comment-page-1/#comment-1840 Brent O. Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:44:51 +0000 http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/18//#comment-1840 I'm with Joe Hewitt on this one. I would rather have the feature implemented in a way where tracking can be turned off by default, and I can still get to the links without going through all the middleman redirects. But I think it's for that very reason that no webmaster in their right mind would ever use these ping tags - certainly no commercial webmaster, anyway. They already have too much invested in their fancy methods that work with most/all browsers. Why implement a new tag that robs them of revenue? Seems like a money-loser to me. It's like implementing a new tag on images called "bannerad" or something, and letting users turn off the banner ads. Sure, it'd be a theoretical win, but come on, what webmaster would actually use the bannerad tag?!? I’m with Joe Hewitt on this one. I would rather have the feature implemented in a way where tracking can be turned off by default, and I can still get to the links without going through all the middleman redirects. But I think it’s for that very reason that no webmaster in their right mind would ever use these ping tags - certainly no commercial webmaster, anyway. They already have too much invested in their fancy methods that work with most/all browsers. Why implement a new tag that robs them of revenue? Seems like a money-loser to me.

It’s like implementing a new tag on images called “bannerad” or something, and letting users turn off the banner ads. Sure, it’d be a theoretical win, but come on, what webmaster would actually use the bannerad tag?!?

]]> By: tim http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/18/send_pings-and-losing-my-innocense/comment-page-1/#comment-1839 tim Thu, 19 Jan 2006 11:52:55 +0000 http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/18//#comment-1839 this seems dumb. what's wrong with javascript onclick handler things? link clicky can be tracked without redirects already. this seems dumb. what’s wrong with javascript onclick handler things? link clicky can be tracked without redirects already.

]]> By: ryan king http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/18/send_pings-and-losing-my-innocense/comment-page-1/#comment-1836 ryan king Thu, 19 Jan 2006 09:41:51 +0000 http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/18//#comment-1836 <blockquote> I just want to make sure that folks like you and I and Blake and Joe stay in the driver seats and don’t get swooshed aside for other… more commercially-driven ends.</blockquote> Oh, I forget that you're going to take over the world and making everything right, overthrow the aristocracy, give the common man his due and steal from the rich and give to the poor. Seriously, why's commercial interest worse than self-interest?

I just want to make sure that folks like you and I and Blake and Joe stay in the driver seats and don’t get swooshed aside for other… more commercially-driven ends.

Oh, I forget that you’re going to take over the world and making everything right, overthrow the aristocracy, give the common man his due and steal from the rich and give to the poor.

Seriously, why’s commercial interest worse than self-interest?

]]> By: :Ben Metcalfe Blog » Blog Archive » Firefox’s new ping attribute http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/18/send_pings-and-losing-my-innocense/comment-page-1/#comment-1835 :Ben Metcalfe Blog » Blog Archive » Firefox’s new ping attribute Thu, 19 Jan 2006 09:35:17 +0000 http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/18//#comment-1835 [...] ain in plain Englsh’ - heh! I was about to do this when I noticed the ever eloquent FactoryJoe has done a better job than I ever could… tags: firefo [...] [...] ain in plain Englsh’ - heh! I was about to do this when I noticed the ever eloquent FactoryJoe has done a better job than I ever could… tags: firefo [...]

]]> By: FactoryJoe http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/18/send_pings-and-losing-my-innocense/comment-page-1/#comment-1833 FactoryJoe Thu, 19 Jan 2006 08:34:34 +0000 http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/18//#comment-1833 Hmm. Well, perhaps I wasn't clear (totally possible if not altogether likely): it's not so much the feature that I take umbridge with (my vote's out currently) but how we, as an open source community, ought be vigilant now that there are bigger players involved in the creation of these apps. And yes, Asa, I would include Flock in that scrutiny. Both you and I make our living because we're fortunate enough to have people wanting to fund the open source technologies that we're building... I just want to make sure that folks like you and I and Blake and Joe stay in the driver seats and don't get swooshed aside for other... more commercially-driven ends. That's all. Typical Messina-esque paranoia. Carry on with your normal blog consuming. Hmm. Well, perhaps I wasn’t clear (totally possible if not altogether likely): it’s not so much the feature that I take umbridge with (my vote’s out currently) but how we, as an open source community, ought be vigilant now that there are bigger players involved in the creation of these apps.

And yes, Asa, I would include Flock in that scrutiny. Both you and I make our living because we’re fortunate enough to have people wanting to fund the open source technologies that we’re building… I just want to make sure that folks like you and I and Blake and Joe stay in the driver seats and don’t get swooshed aside for other… more commercially-driven ends.

That’s all. Typical Messina-esque paranoia. Carry on with your normal blog consuming.

]]> By: Leslie Franke » Blog Archive » Is a New Firefox Feature Spying on Users http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/18/send_pings-and-losing-my-innocense/comment-page-1/#comment-1831 Leslie Franke » Blog Archive » Is a New Firefox Feature Spying on Users Thu, 19 Jan 2006 06:51:08 +0000 http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/18//#comment-1831 [...] d discussion of this topic see Oil Meet Water: Link Tracking in Firefox at Newsome.org and send_pings and losing my innocense by Chris Messina (of Flock fame). [...] [...] d discussion of this topic see Oil Meet Water: Link Tracking in Firefox at Newsome.org and send_pings and losing my innocense by Chris Messina (of Flock fame). [...]

]]> By: Put on a FactoryJoe Helmet? at A Fool’s Wisdom http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/18/send_pings-and-losing-my-innocense/comment-page-1/#comment-1830 Put on a FactoryJoe Helmet? at A Fool’s Wisdom Thu, 19 Jan 2006 06:16:17 +0000 http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/18//#comment-1830 [...] ed send_pings and losing my innocense. Unfortunately, now I wonder if he [...] [...] ed send_pings and losing my innocense. Unfortunately, now I wonder if he [...]

]]> By: Joe Hewitt http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/18/send_pings-and-losing-my-innocense/comment-page-1/#comment-1828 Joe Hewitt Thu, 19 Jan 2006 05:25:51 +0000 http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/18//#comment-1828 I don't know what people are complaining about, this actually this sounds like a pretty huge *win* for internet privacy. You *can't* currently opt-out of link-tracking as it is currently done, using re-directs and mousedown listeners and what not. You *can* opt-out of this new pinging scheme. So really, this feature just forces advertisers to be more honest explicit about the fact that they are going to track your clicks, giving you the opportunity to say "no". I don’t know what people are complaining about, this actually this sounds like a pretty huge *win* for internet privacy.

You *can’t* currently opt-out of link-tracking as it is currently done, using re-directs and mousedown listeners and what not. You *can* opt-out of this new pinging scheme.

So really, this feature just forces advertisers to be more honest explicit about the fact that they are going to track your clicks, giving you the opportunity to say “no”.

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