Comments on: The importance of View Source http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/04/17/the-importance-of-view-source/ This can all be made better. Ready? Begin. Sat, 20 Mar 2010 00:41:35 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Sam Pullara http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/04/17/the-importance-of-view-source/comment-page-1/#comment-104024 Sam Pullara Tue, 10 Mar 2009 03:38:01 +0000 http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/04/17/the-importance-of-view-source/#comment-104024 This is actually one of the places where I see that Apple is truly innovating by pushing on the CSS standard to do things that I think people never really invisioned. Their implementation of animations and 3D transforms using plain text CSS is really compelling, especially if you can easily fallback to more traditional markup when the feature isn't present. Degraded experience is another problem with the plugin model. This is actually one of the places where I see that Apple is truly innovating by pushing on the CSS standard to do things that I think people never really invisioned. Their implementation of animations and 3D transforms using plain text CSS is really compelling, especially if you can easily fallback to more traditional markup when the feature isn’t present. Degraded experience is another problem with the plugin model.

]]> By: Scott Barnes http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/04/17/the-importance-of-view-source/comment-page-1/#comment-104023 Scott Barnes Tue, 10 Mar 2009 02:11:55 +0000 http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/04/17/the-importance-of-view-source/#comment-104023 We're inventing our own approach to the plugin because it's what our customers have requested. There's no hidden meaning, it's simply free trade working in full view. Whilst I take your point that having view source can help those come to terms with how HTML/JS/CSS works in general, it doesn't always work that way in reality. Out of the % of developers around the world, most would yield their answers to the "how" things work via blogs, tutorials or simply conversations. If a developer or designer wants access to someone elses work, simply ask? the worst they can say is no or don't answer. I disagree that you feel it's your right to view otjher peoples work and there's a lot of flaws in your arguement, point and case - how do i get access to the source code in this blog via "View Source". At what point do you define the safe open source boundaries? - Scott Barnes Rich Platforms Product Manager Microsoft. We’re inventing our own approach to the plugin because it’s what our customers have requested. There’s no hidden meaning, it’s simply free trade working in full view. Whilst I take your point that having view source can help those come to terms with how HTML/JS/CSS works in general, it doesn’t always work that way in reality.

Out of the % of developers around the world, most would yield their answers to the “how” things work via blogs, tutorials or simply conversations. If a developer or designer wants access to someone elses work, simply ask? the worst they can say is no or don’t answer.

I disagree that you feel it’s your right to view otjher peoples work and there’s a lot of flaws in your arguement, point and case – how do i get access to the source code in this blog via “View Source”. At what point do you define the safe open source boundaries?

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Scott Barnes
Rich Platforms Product Manager
Microsoft.

]]> By: Chris Messina http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/04/17/the-importance-of-view-source/comment-page-1/#comment-104022 Chris Messina Tue, 10 Mar 2009 02:01:50 +0000 http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/04/17/the-importance-of-view-source/#comment-104022 Thanks Scott. I appreciate your point — it's a valid one. My premise is that content published on the web should be as open and inspectable as possible. In fact, you more or less can get the source of my blog if you download WordPress and the Sandbox theme. Your browser will also give you access to my CSS file and you can readily download all the plugins that I use to power this blog. But that's not really what I'm talking about. The problem that I have with platforms like Silverlight and Air is that, by default, it seems *easier* to choose to make the code harder to get at — or to require expensive tools to tinker around with an app — or to have some strange build process that doesn't work cross-platform — where I have the biggest problem. If you guys put all the effort that you put into Silverlight into open, freely implementable standards that ended up in web browsers that worked cross-platform, I'd have very little grounds to give you shit since the browser, by default, exposes the inner working a webpage with View Source (even if it's obfuscated). Instead, the Silverlight approach to the web leads to more fragmentation and the need to download yet another plugin, which I refuse to do. There is so much promise with HTML5 and CSS3 that I can't conceive of why you're continuing to go down the path of inventing your own proprietary stack for building on the web that I must presume that you continue to wish to compete with it, rather than improve upon and unify it. Thanks Scott.

I appreciate your point — it’s a valid one. My premise is that content published on the web should be as open and inspectable as possible. In fact, you more or less can get the source of my blog if you download WordPress and the Sandbox theme. Your browser will also give you access to my CSS file and you can readily download all the plugins that I use to power this blog. But that’s not really what I’m talking about.

The problem that I have with platforms like Silverlight and Air is that, by default, it seems *easier* to choose to make the code harder to get at — or to require expensive tools to tinker around with an app — or to have some strange build process that doesn’t work cross-platform — where I have the biggest problem.

If you guys put all the effort that you put into Silverlight into open, freely implementable standards that ended up in web browsers that worked cross-platform, I’d have very little grounds to give you shit since the browser, by default, exposes the inner working a webpage with View Source (even if it’s obfuscated). Instead, the Silverlight approach to the web leads to more fragmentation and the need to download yet another plugin, which I refuse to do.

There is so much promise with HTML5 and CSS3 that I can’t conceive of why you’re continuing to go down the path of inventing your own proprietary stack for building on the web that I must presume that you continue to wish to compete with it, rather than improve upon and unify it.

]]> By: Scott Barnes http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/04/17/the-importance-of-view-source/comment-page-1/#comment-104021 Scott Barnes Tue, 10 Mar 2009 01:44:19 +0000 http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/04/17/the-importance-of-view-source/#comment-104021 If you rename a .xap to .zip you'll have your source code? much like if i view source now on this blog, all i'd get is the rendered result not so much the actual source. Instead i have to ask you for a copy of it and then would you be willing to provide it as-is. That being said, if the end user whom creates and produces Silverlight solutions CHOOSES to withhold the actual source than it's their right to do so and one that we should all openly respect. Just like on the footer of your blog, whereby you've opted to protect the content under the Creative Non-Commmerical share license - where it specifies certain restrictions like Commercial usage forbidden - as you've just outlined a restraint in the openness of which you've just stated should occur. I've also noted that whilst View Source is freely available in JavaScript/HTML it's not always helpful or useful. A lot of the times i've seen folks obsfucate their JavaScript to ensure it adds extra layers of complexity to those whom wish to reverse engineer it. - Scott Barnes Rich Platforms Product Manager Microsoft. If you rename a .xap to .zip you’ll have your source code? much like if i view source now on this blog, all i’d get is the rendered result not so much the actual source. Instead i have to ask you for a copy of it and then would you be willing to provide it as-is.

That being said, if the end user whom creates and produces Silverlight solutions CHOOSES to withhold the actual source than it’s their right to do so and one that we should all openly respect.

Just like on the footer of your blog, whereby you’ve opted to protect the content under the Creative Non-Commmerical share license – where it specifies certain restrictions like Commercial usage forbidden – as you’ve just outlined a restraint in the openness of which you’ve just stated should occur.

I’ve also noted that whilst View Source is freely available in JavaScript/HTML it’s not always helpful or useful. A lot of the times i’ve seen folks obsfucate their JavaScript to ensure it adds extra layers of complexity to those whom wish to reverse engineer it.

-
Scott Barnes
Rich Platforms Product Manager
Microsoft.

]]> By: Ryan Stewart - Rich Internet Application Mountaineer » A Place For the "Open" Web and the "Closed" Web http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/04/17/the-importance-of-view-source/comment-page-1/#comment-83217 Ryan Stewart - Rich Internet Application Mountaineer » A Place For the "Open" Web and the "Closed" Web Sun, 29 Apr 2007 11:48:00 +0000 http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/04/17/the-importance-of-view-source/#comment-83217 [...] catching up with some of my trackbacks I found a great post by Chris Messina about the importance of view source as Rich Internet Applications start to take off. He wrote it as an addendum to his panel at Web 2.0 [...] [...] catching up with some of my trackbacks I found a great post by Chris Messina about the importance of view source as Rich Internet Applications start to take off. He wrote it as an addendum to his panel at Web 2.0 [...]

]]> By: John Manoogian III http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/04/17/the-importance-of-view-source/comment-page-1/#comment-81293 John Manoogian III Wed, 25 Apr 2007 04:55:57 +0000 http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/04/17/the-importance-of-view-source/#comment-81293 Mike: Can you share any URLs of Apollo apps with view source enabled? I'm a Flash developer since the FutureSplash days and I've never seen a Flash asset that was view-sourceable without a decompiler. I'm anxious to see this new capability! Mike: Can you share any URLs of Apollo apps with view source enabled? I’m a Flash developer since the FutureSplash days and I’ve never seen a Flash asset that was view-sourceable without a decompiler. I’m anxious to see this new capability!

]]> By: mike chambers http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/04/17/the-importance-of-view-source/comment-page-1/#comment-81176 mike chambers Wed, 25 Apr 2007 02:51:32 +0000 http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/04/17/the-importance-of-view-source/#comment-81176 fyi View source is possible within Apollo, both within Flash based, and HTML based applications. The difference though, is that it is up to the developer on whether they want to allow it. You can see an example of view source in a Flash based Apollo application in the eBay application. Video here: http://www.demo.com/demonstrators/demo2007/91259.php (toward the end of the video). As far as the error with the TwitterCamp app, that is simply a bug in Apollo (which is an alpha). The issue is that the wrong URL is generated and passed to the browser. This will be fixed. Finally, you can compile TwitterCamp with the free Flex SDK, which among other things, includes a compiler. More info at: http://www.flex.org/ mike chambers mesh@adobe.com fyi

View source is possible within Apollo, both within Flash based, and HTML based applications. The difference though, is that it is up to the developer on whether they want to allow it.

You can see an example of view source in a Flash based Apollo application in the eBay application. Video here:

http://www.demo.com/demonstrators/demo2007/91259.php

(toward the end of the video).

As far as the error with the TwitterCamp app, that is simply a bug in Apollo (which is an alpha). The issue is that the wrong URL is generated and passed to the browser. This will be fixed.

Finally, you can compile TwitterCamp with the free Flex SDK, which among other things, includes a compiler. More info at:

http://www.flex.org/

mike chambers

mesh@adobe.com

]]> By: Around the web | alexking.org http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/04/17/the-importance-of-view-source/comment-page-1/#comment-79189 Around the web | alexking.org Mon, 23 Apr 2007 06:06:46 +0000 http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/04/17/the-importance-of-view-source/#comment-79189 [...] The importance of View Source at FactoryCity [...] [...] The importance of View Source at FactoryCity [...]

]]> By: People Over Process » Blog Archive » links for 2007-04-19 http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/04/17/the-importance-of-view-source/comment-page-1/#comment-77383 People Over Process » Blog Archive » links for 2007-04-19 Thu, 19 Apr 2007 07:25:52 +0000 http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/04/17/the-importance-of-view-source/#comment-77383 [...] The importance of View Source at FactoryCity (tags: goodenough wpf/e viewsource web apollo flex ria programming) [...] [...] The importance of View Source at FactoryCity (tags: goodenough wpf/e viewsource web apollo flex ria programming) [...]

]]> By: John Manoogian III http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/04/17/the-importance-of-view-source/comment-page-1/#comment-77359 John Manoogian III Thu, 19 Apr 2007 05:47:45 +0000 http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2007/04/17/the-importance-of-view-source/#comment-77359 well stated. View-Source is a feature, not a bug, and one that has taught countless people how to code, including me. i've always had uneasy feelings about opaque file formats. from search transparency to mobile compatibility, attempts to "rebuild" the web using new formats with little (R)'s or (TM)'s attached usually ends in tears. well stated. View-Source is a feature, not a bug, and one that has taught countless people how to code, including me. i’ve always had uneasy feelings about opaque file formats. from search transparency to mobile compatibility, attempts to “rebuild” the web using new formats with little (R)’s or (TM)’s attached usually ends in tears.

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